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This has been annoying me lately. In my history classes in high school, they taught us about the political spectrum, which was defined something like this:
Radical <-- Liberal <-- Centrist --> Conservative --> Reactionary
And yet everywhere I look, I see references to 'radical' conservativism. What is up with that? The dictionary definitions of radical can serviceably be applied to conservativism, but 'reactionary' is both more specific and, IMHO, fits the conservative philosophy more closely, indicating a resistance to change:
"Characterized by reaction, especially opposition to progress or liberalism; extremely conservative."
or
"An opponent of progress or liberalism; an extreme conservative."
Radical <-- Liberal <-- Centrist --> Conservative --> Reactionary
And yet everywhere I look, I see references to 'radical' conservativism. What is up with that? The dictionary definitions of radical can serviceably be applied to conservativism, but 'reactionary' is both more specific and, IMHO, fits the conservative philosophy more closely, indicating a resistance to change:
"Characterized by reaction, especially opposition to progress or liberalism; extremely conservative."
or
"An opponent of progress or liberalism; an extreme conservative."
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Re: "Radical" Conservatives
Sun, June 18, 2006 - 11:42 PMI say they're reactionary, and I say to hell with it.
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Unsu...
Re: "Radical" Conservatives
Tue, June 20, 2006 - 6:19 AMA radical conservative would focus on root principles and causes, rather than opinion polls and wedge issues. Consider Henry Clay's remark, "I'd rather be right than president." A radical conservative would nod in agreement with that.
Reactionary is something else--for there is a difference in opposing change in principle and in sticking with, or going back to, something known to work--and liberals can be as reactionary as conservatives in this sense. It is ironic---for those of us with a few decades under our belt--to see the shift in views of the Supreme Court. Many "liberals" who liiked legislation from the bench now fear it--because "conservatives" are picking the judges--and insist on the inviolable nature of certain "super precedents," foremost among them Roe Vs. Wade. Should a "liberal" start getting judges on the bench, the same people wouldl advocate for judicial activism. At the same time, of course, those who used to condemn judicial activism now want more because the judges are more to their lilking. Neither side is taking a principled view. -
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Re: "Radical" Conservatives
Tue, June 20, 2006 - 3:32 PM<Reactionary is something else--for there is a difference in opposing change in principle and in sticking with, or going back to, something known to work--and liberals can be as reactionary as conservatives in this sense. It is ironic---for those of us with a few decades under our belt--to see the shift in views of the Supreme Court. Many "liberals" who liiked legislation from the bench now fear it--because "conservatives" are picking the judges--and insist on the inviolable nature of certain "super precedents," foremost among them Roe Vs. Wade. Should a "liberal" start getting judges on the bench, the same people wouldl advocate for judicial activism. At the same time, of course, those who used to condemn judicial activism now want more because the judges are more to their lilking. Neither side is taking a principled view.>
The idea that liberals legislate from the bench is a myth. It's right wing disinformation meant to frame the debate as between those who honor principle, the right, and those who abuse it, the activist liberals. This is rubbish. The trend has long been towards expanding rights, all those not spelled out in the 9th amendment, but which are nonetheless retained by the people. Roe relies on the interpretation in Griswold, asserting the right of the individual to privacy, which is very much in keeping with the 9th. This is not a liberal or activist position - even the most 'liberal' judges are quite conservative in the traditional sense of the term - it represents the understanding that the constitution was meant to be a dynamic instrument, that would be adaptable to changing circumstances, including shifts in consciousness.
It is actually the right wing or fascist - they aren't conservative - judges who decry judicial activism, that are legislating from the bench. The Antonin Scalias of this world, who claim to be strict constructionists, believers in original intent, actually demonstrate no principles at all. They want to ensure certain outcomes, when a strict interpretation serves that end they employ it, when it does not, they ignore it. There isn't a shred of justification for the decision in Bush v. Gore or to support a unitary executive as above the law and able to do anything he pleases. Scalia has said quite openly that most of the rights the people take for granted are not guaranteed by the constitution, and are going to be taken away. That makes him no strict constructionist, merely a liar and a garden variety believer in despotism and the divine right of kings. That's not a conservative position, nor a desireable one, unless you're nostalgic for 14th century feudalism.
If justice prevailed, no member of the Federalist Society or Opus Dei, would get anywhere near the federal bench, as they do not support the bill of rights or key constitutional provisions, such as the separation of powers, or the wall between church and state. We have a federal court system riddled with these elitists, who are opposed to everything we've held dear for a couple centuries. The high court has at least four federalist society members and three of them almost certainly belong to Opus Dei, possibly the fourth as well. Fortunately, should we ever come to our senses, we can remove them. They've all committed impeachable offenses and in any case, there is nothing in the constitution that guarantees federal judges lifetime appointments. -
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Unsu...
Re: "Radical" Conservatives
Wed, June 21, 2006 - 6:59 PMI enjoyed your response, though I think you're painting with too broad a brush. Forget abortion, hell, forget the twentieth century, and think about slavery. Slavery is morally wrong, period, regardless of what the Constiitution says or doesn't say. It's not wrong for ANY legal or constitutional reason; it's wrong for a moral one. That's how we know it's wrong here, there, and everywhere, and we don't need to look at the laws of any land to know this. This same moral light shines on justices too. I wouldn't say that legislating from the bench is wrong if it redresses a clear moral wrong. ("Clear" becomes the battleground, of course.)
This is the same impetus behind the expansion of rights you mentioned. It wasn't so much a matter of legal thinking as moral thinking. What complicates matters in our day is a great confusion about moral thinking. We can't "do the right thing" if we don't know what it is. Even if we do know, the person we're trying to help may think we don't and therefore oppose us.
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Re: "Radical" Conservatives
Thu, June 22, 2006 - 12:11 AM<I enjoyed your response, though I think you're painting with too broad a brush. Forget abortion, hell, forget the twentieth century, and think about slavery. Slavery is morally wrong, period, regardless of what the Constiitution says or doesn't say. It's not wrong for ANY legal or constitutional reason; it's wrong for a moral one. That's how we know it's wrong here, there, and everywhere, and we don't need to look at the laws of any land to know this.>
The Dominionists of the Christian right would disagree with you. According to them since slavery is deemed okay in the OT, it's perfectly acceptable. Slavery, however, illustrates what I wrote earlier. The constitution treated blacks as 3/5 human, but as a governmental instrument it was flexible enough that when society evolved and people came to see slavery as morally unconscionable the document could be amended to reflect that shift.
<This same moral light shines on justices too.>
Depends which ones, the judges on the SC who come from the Federalist Society are Plutocrats first. I suppose it's possible that one or more of them actually believes they're operating from some moral principle, but for the most part like the Straussians they believe in employing religion and moral absolutes, they don't themselves believe in, as an element of social control. They don't care about moral questions as ends in themselves, only as a sop to the rubes, who will then go along with the real agenda. The late John Kenneth Galbraith said ''The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.''
<I wouldn't say that legislating from the bench is wrong if it redresses a clear moral wrong. ("Clear" becomes the battleground, of course.) >
Whether right or wrong, I was merely saying that the so-called liberal activist judges have kept very much within the spirit of the expansion of rights promised by the document, whereas those who claim to adhere to original intent clearly do not. For instance, there is no corporate personhood anywhere within what might be termed original intent. It stems from an SC court clerk's misinterpretation of a judge's comments in 1886, which he then wrote into the record. Clearly the 14th Amendment, which was passed to guarantee the rights of freed slaves was never meant to apply to fictional entities like corporations, which can in no way be termed 'natural born persons'. If Scalia really walked his talk, along with reversing 90 years of precedent on the rights of suspects, he'd be handing down rulings that stripped corporations of rights. Instead this court is all about expanding corporate power even further,
<This is the same impetus behind the expansion of rights you mentioned. It wasn't so much a matter of legal thinking as moral thinking. What complicates matters in our day is a great confusion about moral thinking. We can't "do the right thing" if we don't know what it is. Even if we do know, the person we're trying to help may think we don't and therefore oppose us.>
Well as someone said the best have no resolve and the worst are full of certainty, or something like that. Those who believe they're acting morally when they set out to restrict the rights of others are not only violating the spirit of the constitution, but are what M. Scott Peck referred to as People of the Lie. For him the sin or whatever one wishes to call it comes not from the act itself but from the unwillingness to come clean and atone, and thus one's victims are punished with further unjust action. He gives the example of the Vietnam War - according to him the elite intellectuals who led us into it actually believed that Vietnam would become a staging ground for the Chinese. This of course ignored that the two cultures had been enemies for a couple millennia. As the truth was discovered that Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist first and not about to allow his country to be used by his enemies, we could have acknowledged our mistake and stopped the war. Instead we escalated it, punishing the Vietnamese people for our own cultural ignorance. One could go even further back - the allies had promised Ho Chi Minh that in exchange for services provided by the Viet Minh against the Japanese they would receive their independence at the end of the war. Had that agreement been honored the whole history of the second half of the century might have been different.
Moral philosophy requires self examination, I'm no longer a christian, but the gospels say pull the plank out of your own eye. Those who would legislate morality merely project their shadows on the other and then sit in judgement on those unintegrated parts of themselves whose existence they deny. The Dominionists, it seems to me, stem from two great heresies, on the one hand, Calvinism, which says that faith trumps morality and wealth indicates being in God's favor, making it a great philosophy for robber barons, and on the other, 19th century tent revivalism, from which comes the concept of the rapture. Neither have any scriptural justification. In my view the ends ARE the means. Justice cannot spring from unjust actions. Morality cannot result from dishonest intentions. One will never arrive at useful answers from asking the wrong questions. -
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Unsu...
Re: "Radical" Conservatives
Thu, June 22, 2006 - 10:03 AMThe quote you alluded to was from Yeats, "The Second Coming." It goes (if memory serves), "The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity."
I agree with you about the corporation as a person not being part of the "original intent" of the Framers.
As for the personal beliefs of particular justices, I cannot discuss them because I'm ignorant of them. My point was more general---members of both parties have wished to muzzle the court in one season and unleash it in the next.
Slavery is in the Bible, yet many Christians opposed it and died fighting to end it. I can't remember the last time I heard a Christian advocate for a return to slavery.
I'm most interested in what you call "the spirit of the expansion of rights promised by the documen." Can you explain that? What is this spirit, and whither does it tend? (I'm not asking a smart-ass question; the only graduate level work I've done in law was Canon Law, which has no bearing on our discussion.)
I think this is a pressing issue for America--what (or who) determines rights? Which claims to a right should be legally protected and which ones should be denied? How is this to be decided? I worked as a chaplain in a hospital last summer and I sat in on several sessions with surgeons, nurses, social workers, and other chapains where people were struggling to balance divergent claims of rights and responsibilitiies. The clearest lesson of all that is that we need more clarity in discussions like that!
As for legislating morality, isn't that inevitable? Advocates of gay marriage say it's WRONG to deny this civil right to people. That's a moral claim. They want to "legislate morality" in a sense===they want to say gay marriage is the equivalent of straight marriage. They want to say that what matters most about marriage is CHOICE. That may be true (though it would be a tough case to make in light of the history of marriage) but if it is, it's a true MORAL claim.
See what I mean? -
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Re: "Radical" Conservatives
Thu, June 22, 2006 - 2:26 PMI'm not a member of either party, but I don't see it as you do. The right wants to muzzle the court. They even speak of passing laws which would not be subject to review by the courts, which is not constitutional. In their view the courts are the last institution that stands between them and total control. This is why they've been so intent on packing the federal courts, not only the high court but at all levels, with right wing corporatists over the past twenty five years. The liberals, so-called, on the other hand aren't out to muzzle the courts, but want justices to make decisions that reflect the principles that are the basis of our system of government.
<Slavery is in the Bible, yet many Christians opposed it and died fighting to end it. I can't remember the last time I heard a Christian advocate for a return to slavery. >
I suggest you look into dominionism and reconstructionism and what its proponents believe. They want a theocracy with laws drawn from the ancient tribal myths of the OT. The bible is inviolate remember in these folks eyes, so stoning, slavery, you name it are not only acceptable but desirable. Lest one think this is some whacko fringe that is no threat, consider that the voting machine companies are owned by dominionists, Ahmanson, the Home Savings and Loan heir is a dominionist who controls ES&S, the largest of the companies, which counts the most votes of all of them. Diebold is also controlled by dominionists. These people do not believe in democracy. They do believe the ends justify the means though, and are not in the least squeemish about stealing elections to bring about their agenda. Of course the financial right doesn't care about these folks nor their pet issues, but they are useful for now.
<I'm most interested in what you call "the spirit of the expansion of rights promised by the documen." Can you explain that? What is this spirit, and whither does it tend?>
I'm merely referring once again to the 9th Amendment, which alludes to rights of the people not previously spelled out. It reads: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." Much of what the courts have been doing for the past half century has been spelling out the specifics of the rights implied within that rather broad language. The so-called conservatives want to reverse that process and use the courts to take rights away, including ones clearly spelled out with the first ten amendments, which essentially makes them not so much conservative as traitorous.
Gay marriage may be a moral issue in the sense of fairness, but its advocates in no way are asking that morality be legislated, merely that being of the same species and as citizens of the country they are owed the same rights as everyone else. The same people arguing aginst gay marriage now were saying much the same kinds of things about inter-racial marriage 40 years ago. It was a threat to the institution, a slap in the face of God, would destroy the country's moral basis, an insult to all traditional couples, yada yada yada. The threat if any to traditional marriage comes not from gays, but from divorce and we know that divorce rates are highest in the most conservative church going states. Divorce rates in fact have skyrocketed among fundamentalist and evangelical christians. As an institution marriage may have outlived its usefulness. Women are not tied to a man by economics the way they once were. Those who thus see a threat to their power and privilege in these changing circumstances are scapegoating gays as the culprits. On the other hand the elites, who don't care about this issue in the least see it as a useful way to divide and conquer.
The history of marriage, by the way, is as an institution for guaranteeing property rights, to ensure the continuance of the man's line while assuring him that whatever children are produced are his, through his 'ownership' of the woman, and for creating alliances between clans. Romantic, love based marriage is a relatively recent phenomena and not in the least traditional.
In any case this issue will disappear within a generation. With each generation tolerance of difference regarding race, ethnicity, gender preference, religion and the like, grows. The small children of today don't even make such distinctions. This will soon be looked back on the way most people today view segregation, as an embarrassing blot on our country's history. The bluenoses are fighting a losing battle and they know it, which is why they are making their big push now, even convincing a fellow like Bush, who cares not a fig for this issue, to pander to their fears.
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